Instant undelegation with 10% burn tax

I understand the sentiment behind this proposal discussion, but what it ultimately will do is turn the staking system into a trading platform (to the detriment of network stability). The whole point of the lockup in staking is to provide stability, in terms of a time frame, for validators to run the network hardware. You can read about it in the whitepaper section 2.

Even though this proposal discussion proposes to leave the undelegation period at 21 days, rather than shorting it, what it ultimately does, in my estimation, is to undercut it all together with instant undelegation (although with a fee). It totally benefits the person who has delegated for the purpose of the rewards (as opposed to network stability as a whole, and validators particularly).

  • 10% is a very small cost to pay to exit if the point is to provide stability in return for a reward (you get to keep all the rewards, and when the system is no longer profitable from the delegators perspective, they just exit). Lets say that Luna v1 had a sudden price drop, would not everyone pay the 10% fee to exit, leaving the point of providing network stability in jeopardy?

    • In fact, in a way, this type of ā€œexitingā€ situation is what happened in the Terra crash. Luna is the mining coin, it backed the value of the stable coins. When it began to lose market confidence, people exited at a loss rather than suffer the potential greater loss - however, this perpetuated the problem since Luna, as part of its design, was what was backing the stable coins (although for swaps in the system between LUNA v1 <> TERRA STABLES, at least those that use the market module, when activated, use an equivalent value in SDR). It is true though that after design, but before the crash, the Luna Foundation Guard was implemented as a real world entity to attempt to provide a backstop to the stable coins in regards to a supplemental reserve. So, the backing was exiting at the time it needed it most, and the market module swap system then minted more Luna v1 as part of the virtual liquidity pool that were swapped using the market module’s swap system (since Luna v1 was being sold off, it was now worth less than it had been before). This created the over supply problem that Luna v1 currently has. In fact, I would say that gross oversimplifications of the system led me to misunderstand how the system truly worked, and that misunderstanding brought me to advocate for something, at the time, that actually led to the problem (it was only when I truly began to study the market module, and how it truly works, that I understood the implications of those misunderstandings that I had - which took months of research time by multiple people - and at least in my circle, particularly @johny ).

Instant undelegation, no matter what the fee required, will undercut the network stability. The reward structure is designed precisely to reward those who stake for the 21 days, or more, of stability by locking their Luna v1 during that time - if they are not going to provide that stability, and take the risk during that time, then they should not receive a reward. Instant undelegation then turns the undelegation period into 0 days of stability. So, even though you may leave it at 21 days in word, in practice it would make it 0. That is dangerous in my personal estimation.

Here is something I mentioned, although more focused to no limits on redelegation, when someone asked about it previously, so including that for what it is worth (as my personal thoughts - and since in practice 0 days is less than 21 days, this would still apply):

Here are some possible thoughts: One consequence could be that people will game the validators. As time gets shorter, it can force every validator down to the minimum percent mark the lower the number goes for the days.

Undelegation period is meant to provide security to the network (and those who stake are rewarded for their providing mining power via stake - ie. they are rewarded for the 21 day period they exchange their stake for mining power).

For redelegation, it was allowed so that delegates had a way to hold bad validators accountable while also not having to wait the 21 days to undelegate to change. However, in order to prevent misuse of redelegation in a way that cuts against network stability, in terms of either mining power or consensus security, it only allows 1 redelegation per wallet for the particular staked LUNA away from a validator. It does allow upto 7 delegations to a specific validator per wallet account as well during that period. Here is a nice outline of the process:

The staking system is not really meant to be used as a trading tool (gaming validator commissions), but to provide consensus stability and security, and the rewards are more akin to a long term investment (pay back).

There may also be a practical side too, for consensus security as well as for tracking delegations for evidence slashing and jai[Ā·]ling.

Here are some articles/docs on it (redelegation has been part of cosmos-sdk since v0.1.0-alpha1):

This is to say nothing of the potential issues, from an implementation perspective, that it could have for the evidence module (which makes sure that validators, as well as their delegates, since validation is a partnership between delegators and the hardware operator, are penalized for trying to abuse the consensus system), and slashing module (which disincentivizes any actions negatively affecting staking and the network that are defined in the system). You can read about it here.

Hope that helps a little bit, and that you have a great day today :slight_smile:

3 Likes

Re the recovery service issue:
The ā€œrecovery serviceā€ that aims to rescue the coins itself doesn’t need lot of time to work. Basically it just tries to ā€œwin the raceā€ against the malicious actor by spamming txs with multiple nodes and hoping to win. The time referred to is the time the victim of an attack has to 1) recognize he’s been attacked 2) reach out to the recovery service and purchase the recovery service.

24-48h can still be very low for people that don’t check their wallets very often.

Re general proposal:
@LUNCPREDATOR I am still making up my mind on your (well thought out and presented) proposal. Taxing ā€œinstantā€ or ā€œfastā€ undelegations makes sense and is something some part of the community wishes. However, staking (including unbonding period) is meant to secure the network from takeover and attacks during extraordinary market volatility events (at least from my understanding) and to prevent a sort of ā€œbankrunā€.
In such situation, where the price is already tanking in a flash crash, expanding the circulating supply via (instant) mass-undelegation will only fuel the crash and make it possibly easy for a bad actors to gain majority of VP (since he wouldn’t need lots of coins % of total supply any longer to have a majority in governance) and basically can attack governance. Did you consider this?

1 Like

Thank you all for voicing your opinions. One thing is repeated here, and I also consider it the most important, and that is - CHAIN SAFETY.

I am aware of this risk.

I cannot mathematically verify where the critical threshold is where the volume of instantly withdrawn coins becomes an extremely risky event for the entire chain. And so I need your help to express your opinion on this matter.

I described the worst possible scenario exactly in this comment:

The worst possible scenario would be if 100% of the delegated coins were withdrawn and put into circulation. It’s a catastrophic scenario, but it’s unrealistic in my opinion. But let’s accept it as the worst possible scenario. I described that this risk needs to be reduced.

Let me show the professional destruction of my person…

RISK:

Risk management according to ISO 31000 is simply divided into these basic parts (Simplified version):

  1. Risk identification - The first step in risk management is risk identification. We already know the risk and it has been named and described.

  2. Risk analysis - In this part, we try to get to know the risk in depth and quantify its likelihood and consequence. We always calculate with the highest potential likelihood and the most significant potential negative impact. (However, the impact of risk can also be the creation of opportunities.)

  3. Risk evaluation - Let’s assume that the outcome is catastrophic and the probability is also high. Overall, we can say that this proposal represents a high risk. (Risk = Likelihood X Consequence).

We therefore consider this risk UNACCEPTABLE.

RISK TREATMENT:

At this point, the mastery of the security manager comes into play. There are several ways to reduce the risk. (For example: reduce likelihood, reduce impacts, avoid activity…)

We are looking for answers to two fundamental questions:

  1. Is there an ACCEPTABLE level of risk in this case? (Question to the plenary.)
  2. If so, what measures can we use to reduce this risk to an acceptable level???

I mentioned several ways of reducing the risk above. My additional current questions are:

  1. Is there a high enough tax rate to reduce this risk? (My answer is 20% = 10% reduction in total supply + 5% community pool for development + 5% oracle pool)
  2. Can we limit this function to reduce the risk to an acceptable level? For example:
    a) After using this feature, there will be a cooldown of 21 days.
    b) We will create a maximum limit, how many % of the delegated coins we can withdraw at most.

Example: 20% limit
If I have 50 million LUNC in delegation, I can use the ā€œFast undelegateā€ function only for 10 million LUNC.
I will then pay a tax of 20% (2 million LUNC).
1 million LUNC goes to the burn wallet
500k LUNC goes to the community pool
500k LUNC goes to the oracle pool

If the total risk was 1 trillion (100% of the delegated LUNC coins), then we reduced the impact by 80% to 200 billion LUNC, which could be withdrawn at one time. Is this acceptable anymore?

LET’S DISCUSS

2 Likes

There is a fairly simple solution to this issue: allow unlocking no more than 30-50% of staked coins.

4 Likes

For example 100M coins staked.

Instant undelegate up to 50M (50% max) cool down period before any future instant undelegation is 21 days.

15% tax (my preferred) results in 42.5M received with 7.5M tax of 5M burned 1.25M CP 1.25M OP.

If 20% results in 40M received with 10M tax of 5M burned 2.5 CP 2.5 OP.

This feature should be primarily for burns, so the extra 5% tax for the CP and OP is unnecessary as we have other funding methods for CP and OP, should keep it at 15% tax for 10% burn 2.5% CP and 2.5% OP. IMO

Then security wise at least only 50% can be lost if hacked, rest could use a stake recover service as it would have the normal cooldown period (21 days atm).

This means only 50% of stakes could undelegate in 21 days. That’s decent for chain stability. My thoughts for now.

The 21 days do not ensure the security of the blockchain. If you look at 85% of the tokens they are not staked. If people want, they can bring down the blockchain even more. If someone with a lot of money wants to do damage, they can buy x amount of tokens daily and accumulate until they reach a point where they sell everything at once, causing the token to fall. The 21 days is just stupid that makes people not want to stake in the entire cosmos ecosystem and if they do it is only in a limited way.

I honestly prefer to have my tokens in my wallet or in some dapps that allow me to get it whenever I want.

1 Like

saw a comment about allowing this to where the next undelegation would still take 21 days to prevent abuse of the system. Id support something like this.

1st undelegation (instant) 10% burn tax
user redelegates
2ndundelegation (21 day lock up)
user redelegates
3rd undelegation (instant) 10% BT

This one is simple. No with Veto.

The benefit of the 21 day staking period is two fold.

  1. Stability of the Blockchain against exaggerated price swings and volatility caused by mass or panic withdrawals.

  2. Rewards for locking up your coins for those 21 day.

The answer isn’t any sort of tax. The answer is if you cannot afford to lock your coins up for 21 days, DO NOT STAKE THEM.

And yes I fully understand this is the Instant Gratification generation, but in this instance the potential damage isn’t worth it.

5 Likes

A stable blockchain does not need such a high time. This is why people trust Cardano more :yawning_face:

Is the yield the same?

1 Like

If you define the value of a blockchain in that profit then you have no idea of the importance of a thing

You have no idea about investment priorities. Cryptocurrency itself is a high-risk asset. ADA is in 7th place. Lunc at 62. What to compare? The degree of risk of the investment? Yield? Most of today’s Lunc investors bought it at the bottom. the ceiling of their investment is $300. They even raise topics on the vote for the possibility of a quick unlock. Everyone is waiting for the price of $1 and they will become millionaires. They are not even aware that many will want to take profits. The collapse will begin. And their actions will make it worse. And opponents of incineration do not understand this either. If all of a sudden the developers succeed, and investors start buying, without reducing the money supply, this will be the beginning of the end. Already final.

Those 21 days do not give me security. A blockchain with high APY but that does not provide enough security and trust is useless.

I don’t expect the token to reach $1 because I can withdraw the money at any time and make a profit, but that would make the token fall even more. What I hope is that trust in the blockchain is restored and the security it provides is improved without depriving users of their freedom. There is a lack of development and future vision.

Without a reduction in the money supply, development progress is dangerous. Rising prices are dangerous. The danger is that many are counting on this. When the price rises, profit-taking begins. It’s like building a house on a bomb. The higher, the more likely an explosion. You need to deactivate first. Or at least under construction.

No matter the path you take there will always be consequences and development cannot be stopped even if there are stones in the road.

If the token does not have a utility and applications that make the money flow, the supply will take a long time to go down

development must continue…

Just cap how much can be unstaked in epoch that way say 20 percent or 30 percent

10% is FAR too low of a tax. Staking is important to chain security. It would need to be upward of 25% maybe more even to make an INSTANT unstake even an option worth discussing. Maybe a rolling tax. 2% per day so if you instant unstake you pay 42% tax.
If you wait 10 days then instant unstake you pay 22% and so on

I agree with the idea that you could limit the amount of tokens that can be unstaked but I do not agree with taking away from users an absurdly high % of their money

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5% and of course this is option you can unstake normal way and pay 0%

There must also be a commercial interest for the validator. Maybe 1-2%